Playing with a Big Band

Yep, that's it right there boys & girls, great advice [AWA free lesson!]. [img]wink.gif[/img] Fantastic.

I'd never heard the expression 'chop wood' either, Zak, LOL, but by the implication & connotation of it's meaning in that statement AWA the style/genre, I would agree...is that what you meant by that DazzO?... [img]cool.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 29, 2005 03:04 PM: Message edited by: got_a_match_grip? ]</font>

Zak,
Sorry mt man, not only did you just contradict yourself, your first post simply isn't true.
You need to read a chart to develop a feel? What? Are out of your mind? First you said you can't play big band without reading, then you said, memorize it so your head's not buried in the chart.
These comments alone show inexperience.
A good reader reads 16 bars at a time therefor NEVER burying his head in the chart. It's like reading sentence, and each bar of music is a word.
Reading is not music. It's like saying you need to read english in order to speak it. This is so wrong, it's making my hairs stand up.
Reading is a tool to help you get through a song. That's it. Most great musicians barely read, even when they are great readers. It's all about listening and musical memory. It doesn't matter if this isn't the big band era. Reading is not a must.
Chart reading is not a required tool, nor is it playing music. Teachers like Steve Houghton have completely ruined the approach by saying "you have to read" to play big band, in order to sell their books and videos. I have students coming in saying I can play big band sure, just because they can play a chart perfectly. Meanwhile they can't swing or play in the style. Why should big band be associateed with reading more so than any other style? Reading is just a means of helping someone who's never playesd the music, get through the form. That's it.
The ONLY time reading helps is when you're playing something for the first time without having heard it before, which is why in order to play sessions, you need to read. Period. Too many drummers use reading as a crutch when in the real world top players memorize music after one run through.

P.S You said there's no way to hear the charts by ear?

ummmm....what about the person that composed them? Didn't they hear it? Isn't that how things are composed?
ummmm...what about Dennis Chambers on the BRMS dvd? He's not a big band player, but he nailed the tunes, he doesn't read a note. He played with John McLaughlin! Practically the hardest music around.

Paraface is right.
You don't NEED to read at all.
I have friends on Broadway shows that memorize everything from CD.
Reading has nothing to do with the style of Big Band.
It helps no matter what you play. Grady Tate doesn't read, neither did Gene Krupa or Buddy. You can't tell me on all those jazz recordings Buddy did for other leaders, that they rehearsed over and over. No way! He had great ears and musical memory as Paraflam said.
Come on guys! This is basic musical knowledge.

I have never played Big band stuff "professionaly". By that I mean, in front of large audiences or perhaps with a steady band. However I would highlight this:
For the past 6 years I've taken lessons from the same drum instructor and we've covered all major styles of music under the sun. During no style did we spend more time on charts than with big band stuff. I wouldn't go so far as to say that you MUST be able to read to be a good big band player, but the style of music simply lends itself to reading very well - perhaps more than others. Especially learning how to pick out the oh-so-important kicks typical of big band music comes to mind. What I am trying to say is this: When I think back to first learning big band tunes, I remember the rewarding feeling of successfully reading a chart. I think back and say : "Oh yeah big band, that's where you have to own your charts and drive the band at 200mph!"
In other styles of music such as rock or funk you can get away with playing what "feels" right - often a groove with 2 and 4 on the snare will be fine. However, if you sit in with a big band and are asked to play a tune, I would almost go so far as to say that you become the "conductor". Sure, after a while you can get used to it and play by ear, gradually internalising those kicks. But why not take this opportunity to learn a new musical style IN ADDITION to brushing up those reading skills. I guess it just depends how highly you value formal musical education. I have always strongly believed in that.

Let me drop my two cents in.

Para is definately right.

I've been doing two big bands at university for the last two semesters. When I first got into to these, I was on that BRMSC wavelength, but after one rehearsal, and a bit of yelling from my director, I figured out that's not the way to go.

First of all feel is most important. If you just lock into the q note with the bassist and not even play or read one figure, they'll like it better than if you destroy the feel by trying to read everything. The hint here is that those notes are just suggestions. My director would always stop the band and say, "you know it was feeling great for a moment, but then it started getting weird... and you know what when I looked at you(me) your head was in the music." After that he wouldn't give a chart until the second time we played the tune. Let me tell you that after youget the hang of just playing by ear, you'll be suprised by how much it helps other things.

If you look at Para's list of drummers, he hit it on the head. When I first got into Jazz all I had were a few Basie albums. This is really the style to learn. I think they were called a sweet band or a hot band (I should have stayed awake in jazz history). Nonetheless, this style is the absolute opposite of most stuff BRMSC. Really simple, straight a head, and the only time it gets active is when it says fill. Funny enough this is the style where four on the floor actually sounds alright. I know the times it felt best for was like on "Shinny Stalkings" totally closed hi-hat just playing quarter notes, and a piano(dynamic) four on the floor.

For reading, you definately want to be able to read. Once you start getting into harder compositions and arrangements, it's a must, because the road map can get quite involved on these tunes, but don't worry about the figures as much as the form. I would suggest getting your hands on the Ted Reed book and working throught all the different ways of reading the excersies. Then there's a few Bellson books. These I find help the best because it's just syncopation excersices, nothing realized for you. Oh yeah, there is another book that's good if you have a teacher: Syncopated Big band Figure for the Modern Drummer, it's like a duet of Ted Reed solos.

In big band feel is king. Two nights ago I went to a theater production, they didn't have a big band, but the orchestration was trying to emulate it quite a bit. The drummer was pretty good, playing some pretty technical stuff that was, at time, making me wonder if I could or would pull some of that shit off. The only problem is when he went for it, the feel went sour. In my opinion, I would rather have a cat that couldn't play a paradiddle, but had great feel. This was a production still playing from their black history month line-up. It had a barber shop like feel to it, and the dudes acting could snap better a feel than the drummer. Like I said he was good, but if he dropped some of the notes, the performance would have been much more musical.

So ahh, play good quarter notes.

What I don't understand is how everyone is saying, yes PARA is right. Yet you're all still saying reading is a must.
Reading is a must for those people with poor musical memory and/or playing something for the very first time. Otherwise it's not a must.
It was said earlier. Buddy Rich was a very successful sideman in the beginning of his career without reading. Dennis Chambers doesn't read a note and plays some of the hardest music to date with J.M.
Reading is a useful skill, but not a must to play any style. It's actually more musically beneficial to not read, in order to develop you ears and memorization skills.
Steve Hass talked about this in his forum not too long ago.
I'll be the first to admit the fact that I'm a good reader, has slowed down my learning process. Relying on music can become a problem. So don't tie in Big Band drumming with reading. It's the wrong approach. Big Band is about swing.

Funny?? Last I heard, Zak "IS" a working pro. Music is how he makes his living. I think his resume speaks for itself.

Paraflam.... said
"The first thing you DON'T want, is the Buddy Rich Scholarship DVD. That's not real big band drumming. That's a bunch of fusion and session guys sort of playing big band. And even the jazz guys on that over play"

And that Paraflam is why I distinctly pointed out Steve Arnold. He "IS" playing more of what I would consider to be straight ahead swing. He's allowing the band to breathe and allowing Cathy's vocals to come out in the tune. And as far as not listening to the others.... that is rubbish. The grooves... the licks, the mad playing, the theory behind this stuff "CAN" be translated into any big band situation. I'm sure if you guys listen to enough Buddy, you'd realize that those licks were also played by him at one time or another. Just because you listen to fuziod guys and copy their comping or licks, doesn't mean you couldn't use it in application to a big band scenario.

Paraphrasing Steve Jordan, I'm from the school of "going for it". The more you attempt, the more mistakes you make, the easier it will eventually get for you to rip out those difficult chops or phrasings. And it will certianly make it easier to keep time on the ride and develop your "driving" skills.

I would really like to know what your credits are Paraflam and Flarob?? I would assume you guys have recorded with some big bands that others could hear your playing on??

Flarob states.....
"reading has nothing to do with the style of Big Band"

ugghhhh god!!! Flarob. Once you posted on another Jazz thread that you must learn the "language" of "Jazz". Read Rapael"s post. He's admidittly "NOT" a "JAZZ" player. And how else would you teach him the basics of Jazz playing, or especially "Big Band"?? Fundamentally, there is sooooo much to learn.

Paraflam states...
"P.S You said there's no way to hear the charts by ear?"

Paraflam... anybody who does this stuff for a living usually doesn't get a rehersal. And that is what Zak was talking about. If you show up on a gig "cold" and without knowledge of the bands repetoire (i.e. having the chance to internalize the tunes/form), do you think your "ears" are going to get you thru the night?? Maybe so, but you'd have to be one mofo and do nothing but Big Band gigs. But the rest of the "PROFESSIONAL MUSIC COMMUNITY" usually uses charts on the gig, because most "pros" usually play many different styles of gigs, even if it where just to glance and reference regarding changes, hits, etc.

Dazz absolutely nailed it. He speaks "Jazz"!! [img]wink.gif[/img]

This is the gospel when it comes to playing in a professional situation. Sounds like Dazz DOES gig alot in PROFESSIONAL situations. Because he's telling it EXACTLY how it is!!

Everything that Dazz pointed out, EVERYTHING can be sought out on Greg Bissonettes new DVD. Everything from "Chopping wood", to "not "overplaying" (i.e. Vinnie, Weckl on the BRM video), to setups, long and short notes, to "driving the band", etc.

Ohhh!! And before I forget. Here's another whopper from Paraflam...
"And Gregg Bissonette is a great knowledgable drummer, but he's not [a] great big band drummer in my opinion. He can cut it, but he's no Sonny Payne."

Hmmm?? So Flarob?? Do most of the working big band drummers need to be at the level of Sonny Payne to play a Big Band gig??

Like I said before, (flarob and paraflam) when you start getting the gigs like greg has in the past (i.e. Maynard Ferguson Big band), let us know. Ok?? We'd love to hear your Big Band playing.

ps..... rafael, Welcome to the board.


Great post Dazz!! [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]

Well John, I agree with what you mentioned, but lets not point fingers and say: "Fine, you guys go play big band and do a better job." I believe you can critisize players above your level, but you better be on SPOT ON with what you say and back things up. In this aspect I must admit that Flarob and Para fall short. John and Dazz are both fantastic drummers - not only have we had the pleasure of hearing them play in the past, but it shows in the posts. Let me bring up a little story from a good friend of mine:

He is a graduate from the LA Music Academy and tells me this: While he was a student there, he would have weekly big band classes and the format would look like this: They have a big band come in and you get the chart for the tune. You sit down and hear the instructor go "1, 2, 1,2,3,4"! No warning. That's it. The tune kicks in at full swing and you better fit in all the important. Not being able to read means death in this situation. I believe that any professional drummer with experience in this style of music will tell you that being able to read those charts is crucial.

I've enjoyed this thread.

For another 10 cents worth, (being originally a huge big band freak), there two vinyl albums I certainly haven't been able to find on CD ever, sadly. Could be a task for anyone who fancies a task!

There are two albums that feature some of the greatest big band drumming I ever heard in my life. One is Woody herman - "My Kind Of Broadway" (mid 60's) featuring an absolutely phenominal drummer named Ronnie Zito. Absolutely nailed everything on that entire record. Made an already phenominal band sound even greater than it was already.

The other is an album called "Here's Lena Horne" by that great, great singer. I think the band maybe English, not sure. Anyway, the personnel is not listed. No idea who this equally phenominal drummer is that record, but it's absolutely fantastic. Every phrase he sets up behind Lena. Oh my God!

I'll mention the other thread I sarted on here concerning the amazing John Von Ohlen too, with Kenton.

Those first two records, if you can find them anywhere don't hesitate to purchase them!!

Sincerely,

GH